Wraith's tyme says to everyone:
Welcome to The Edge and our Discussion Night. Now to be held every Sunday evening beginning at 10pm ET. Please jump in with your opinions as they are all welcome. What is not welcome in any good discussion is belittling O/others opinions. This wouldn't be very tolerant and heaven knows, BDSM in general is tolerant of all kinks and the various ways W/we all practice our roles here. Please keep conversations unrelated to the discussion topic in PM as this discussion will be copied and posted to the U of N pages. So let's begin!

Tonight’s topic is submissives, dominants, bottoms and tops and how these roles fit in BDSM.
Following, i will post 3 brief *common* definitions.
Please know that there as many opinions as grains of sand in the desert, common i call them, as they came from Wikipedia and sexuality.org and are generally accepted, generally *w*

Dair says to everyone:
I believe the reality of the difference in each individually is more the topic as each has its on entity...Yes??

Dair says to everyone:
tops, bottoms, submissive and dominant roles, is there a difference?...anyone has it’s on place?

~gulara~{MASTER KAHN} enters The Edge

Wraith's tyme says to Dair:
so you don't see a difference then Sir? i will post the simplest of definitions.... see what You think please *s*

Dair says to everyone:
Guess being a little early or ahead is better then being behind

Dair says to everyone:
well unless u r submissive...little leviate there to get us started

Wraith's tyme says to everyone:
A submissive (or "sub") is one who enjoys having any of a variety of BDSM practices performed upon them by a dominant; or one who holds a submissive position within a relationship based upon dominance and submission (D/s).
This enjoyment can spring from a simple desire for submission or an enjoyment of the interplay of wills involved in such a scenario.
It should be noted that for bottoms who are not submissive, the bottom is most often the partner who is giving instructions—the top typically tops when, and in the manner, requested by the bottom.

Dair says to everyone:
I don’t think there is a diff so much as there is a significant....area for each

kalen enters The Edge

Wraith's tyme says to everyone:
A dominant (or "Dom") is one who enjoys performing any of a variety of BDSM practices upon a submissive; or one who holds a dominant position within a relationship based upon dominance and submission (D/s).
This enjoyment can spring from a simple desire for dominance or an enjoyment of the interplay of wills involved in such a scenario.
A male dominant is often called a Dom; a female, a Domme or dominatrix.
A top filling the dominant role is not necessarily a dominant, and vice versa, and a bottom is not necessarily submissive.

Wraith's tyme says to everyone:
- bottom- A term used for most that "play" in the submissive role. Gives up control but only for the play time.
The main difference between a submissive and a bottom is that the submissive ostensibly does not give instructions, although they do set limits on what the dominant can do.
- Top-A term used for most that "play" in the Dom/me role. The one that controls things but only for the play time.
The main difference between a dominant and a top is that the dominant ostensibly does not follow instructions, although they are limited by what the submissive is willing to do.
-Topping from the bottom- where the sub directs the Top what to do or how to do things to them.

Wraith's tyme says to everyone:
So, after reading those brief descriptions of each role, do you, does anyone notice themselves or others?

Dair says to tyme:
message was rejected

Dair says to tyme:
by filter

kalen says to tyme:
Yes I am All/all

Wraith's tyme says to Dair:
oh my Sir....... the things You must have said *w*

Dair says to tyme:
LOL..

Wraith{tyme} says to everyone:
Soooo... if My wife or g/f tells Me they want to be handcuffed and spanked before sex tonight... I'm a Top...and If I grab her by the hair and drag her to the bedroom to be cuffed and spanked and then fucked...I am a Dominant

Dair says to tyme:
no not at all, just saying the role of....It should be noted that for bottoms who are not submissive, the bottom is most often the partner who is giving instructions—the top typically tops when, and in the manner, requested by the bottom.

Wraith's tyme says to kalen:
smiles, so do you mean at different times, maybe with different partners, you take on all those roles?

Dair says to tyme:
does not apply very often towards the SM side of the lifestyle

kalen says to Wraith:
I would disagree slightly with that Sir. couldnt it be that the sub or even slave might express their deepest desires but that doesn’t make them trying to top you

Wraith{tyme} says to everyone:
more like Top and bottom is a bit of vanilla spillage into the BDSM lifestyle

Dair says to tyme:
in RT that is...over the phone i guess its anything goes

kalen says to tyme:
well that’s my exploration but yes I think I am a switch and its by mood

Dair says to kalen:
Not on the SM side Wraith{tyme} says to kalen:
I suppose they could tell Me that so I can work their needs and cravings into My Regimen...Personally I like it when tyme whispers a want into My ear..still..is My decision if I wish to fulfill it..and when..and how

Dair says to kalen:
The lifestyle in that area is so drastic....in change and style

Wraith's tyme says to Wraith:
i think i would agree with kalen if and likely only referring to submissives as subs will lay out their desires in negotiations well ahead, trusting that the Dom/me will take it from there, nuff said in a way....

kalen says to Dair:
I think its probably like finger prints there isn’t a person alive or that has lived that is exactly the same even in bdsm,.so it might be hard to prescribe absolutes to each scenario

~lolli~ Owned by HellBent enters The Edge

Wraith{tyme} says to tyme:
true..although if there are any changes most Dominants like to be updated by Their submissives..communication is key as you know

Dair says to tyme:
subs will lay out their desires in negotiations...are u speaking in the 1st tense or the situated couple

Dair says to tyme:
Cause his desires are also important in choice of the occasion

Wraith's tyme says to Wraith:
that is why as Yours, when You ask me, i am more than willing to tell You my desires, but even i being so comfy with You, prefer not to have to ask You for anything specific

Dair says to tyme:
Exactly....time determines desires as known and needed...only in new is altered communication needed as the Dom already through time knows those already determined

Wraith{tyme} says to tyme:
Smiles because I have a 45 page manual on how to properly handle a tyme... it is verrry handy I might add...yet I do not think most C/couples go that far and it gets hazy as to what the limits and needs are

Dair says to tyme:
Specific desires at the time...Now that’s a different area of talk

Wraith's tyme says to Wraith:
so i laid myself out well for You then? *w*

Dair says to Wraith:
That’s why i don’t agree with pg 22...para 11...bad rule

Wraith{tyme} says to Dair:
No rules in it actually...I make all the Rules..*S*

kalen says to everyone:
Well if a person is a slave by the book definition then there is no negotiation. However as a sub as the definition states there are choices but these choices or negotiations in context are more about learning the likes and dislikes and setting limits but wouldn’t this be primarily done in the beginning of the relationship? Dair says to Wraith:
You know...the 3 passes rule a year to debate or question us at anytime without rebuttal

Wraith{tyme} says to tyme:
Aye that you did. I must say it has made My role as Dom much easier to deal with and makes for less *discussion time* and more play time

Wraith's tyme says to kalen:
that would be how i see it and when we are talking here, we are referring almost always to subs, not slaves, as they have no choice, usually, after handing themselves over for a life of slavery

Dair says to kalen:
as i said up above about 1st time or early involvement

Wraith{tyme} says to Dair:
I let her question Me because she may be sub..but is still My treasured companion and I value her opinion...also she is a very well trained subbie and knows My limits in that area

Dair says to tyme:
tyme....subs have rights...they have choices...they walk along side of their partner....the distribution of the actions is what is important

Wraith's tyme says to Dair:
and for that reason i am a sub and would never be a slave *s*

Nathan says to everyone:
I wonder though in some respects about the particular word choice of "instruction" as it is defined for a submissive. Is a submissive's conversations over time (if this is something extended with a Dominant) or even perhaps during brief interludes, "instructing"? I would think that communication of limits and a certain degree of assurance of mutual pleasure (at some most basic shared premise) is excused from "instruction" between D/s.

Jaded (M)emory says to everyone:
So top and bottom really has nothing to do with BDSM?........its just a form of play that can spill in any direction?

Dair says to Wraith:
But is it she who is trained or is it you that are trained through your actions and determinations to improve the lifestyle that you have choose to admire and share?

Dair says to Wraith:
It can work either end

Dair says to Wraith:
I still believe after 20 plus years RT,,,that slave do not practice the BD side of this

kalen says to everyone:
what of pittbulls like me that might start out playing the sub role but if the mood changes especially based on the inherent weakness of the supposed top at the time, then I am more than likely to change the roles without warning?

Dair says to Wraith:
SM does not have to be physical

Wraith{tyme} says to Dair:
tyme is the one who has been trained in the submissive role...I am a natural Dominant and all I had to do was some intense reading to discover all the variations of the Lifestyle

Wraith's tyme says to Nathan:
well said and i think too, W/we all change over time and experiences, letting Y/your partner know that would be critical to B/both continuing to enjoy the time together ... in my opinion, open communication is critical to continue any relationship

Dair says to kalen:
You don’t want me to answer that kalen

Dair says to kalen:
Smiles

kalen says to Dair:
sure

Wraith{tyme} says to kalen:
if you were with a top that might work... but no Dominant worth Thier salt would let you get away with that..if you start the scene a sub..best to stay that way until it's over

Wraith's tyme says to Jaded (M)emory:
i think as defined, top and bottom positions can be in any relationship, when referred to in BDSM, they have their own unique meanings

oncebitten2xshi<< oncebitten2xshi enters The Edge

Dair says to kalen:
When entering that area you are voiding yourself of the true meaning of the lifestyle and enter a whole new area of practice...which we can discuss at another time

kalen says to Dair:
To me it isn’t about topping from the bottom but a mercurial dynamism , its like riding the back of a tiger.

Dair says to Wraith:
100% agree

Dair says to kalen:
well..i think more of russian roulette

kalen says to everyone:
lol, I just despise weakness in someone that has decided at the outset to be dominant over me but then fails in the task, some have called this a self hate since I can be both, but I’m trying to understand why i am like that, i don’t seem to have the same disdain for a sub in my care I am more cherishing of the person, so my question I believe is still germane to the discussion. when I do that am I topping from the bottom or has something else played into the moment?

Wraith{tyme} says to everyone:
so then..top and bottom is a less structured set of roles as compared to the Dominant/submissive roles

Wraith{tyme} says to kalen:
I think what that means is ...you need a strong Dominant to Control you in your submissive role

‡ dark muse ‡ says to kalen:
i would hope you just haven't found the right Dom/me if you're turning the tables on Them... ..i do understand what you're saying..

Wraith's tyme says to kalen:
i think what we do in any situation can be guided by our partner, be they Dom, top or whatever, so if you change mid scene, perhaps it is at the urging, by the behavior of your partner at the time, or, perhaps, in some cases you are topping from the bottom when you feel your partner is not guiding as you would like, perhaps they are themselves, too insecure to do so and you sense that..... perhaps

Wraith{tyme} says to Jaded (M)emory:
Sets the tow chains and drags Your opinions out of You..*G*

kalen says to everyone:
i do the same in everyday relationships i will work with or compromise with anyone if its for a common goal but the weakness i see in indecision by others will have me assuming the role to tell them what to do,.i think I hate indecision.

~lolli~ Owned by HellBent says to ‡ dark muse ‡:
*nods in agreement* some subs or those with submissives tendencies aren't necessarily that easy to control *W*

Wraith{tyme} says to ~lolli~:
you can say that again..

Jaded (M)emory says to Wraith:
thinking about cuffing kalen.........and seeing if I am cuffed in the end *G*....(said in love of course)

~lolli~ Owned by HellBent says to Wraith:
I should have added, from time to time, the right one or sometimes several have the knack of drawing it from them *S*

lil' lulu {ST} enters The Edge

kalen says to Jaded (M)emory:
lol might be a dog fight

Wraith{tyme} says to kalen:
No Dom/me or subbie is right for everyone, that's why it always pays to do alot of talking before you ever offer any form of submission to any Dominant and vice-versa

~lolli~ Owned by HellBent says to Jaded (M)emory:
*raises an eyebrow and hmms*

Wraith's tyme says to everyone:
Would you say this is a good way of describing "Topping from the bottom"?
"Topping from the bottom," is a way some run a scene from the bottom. The bottom… wriggling, oohing and ahhing when their partner does something they like in an attempt to encourage them to do it more, or going silent and not moving when they don't like what is being done so their partner won't be encouraged to continue to do it.
Topping from the bottom is one way people who have, or believe they have, no real power can gain control over conversations, scenes, relationships, or their lives.
Have Y/you seen this going on in the BDSM chat rooms or other examples of it?

‡ dark muse ‡ says to ~lolli~:
true...*s*

Jaded (M)emory says to kalen:
glad you took that right *G*

kalen says to Wraith:
agreed

Wraith{tyme} says to Jaded (M)emory:
Knows You would love that You naughty Boi..*S*

Southern Ta(M)ed Sneaks in the backdoor

Nathan says to tyme:
that does sound rather appropriate - a sort of passive guidance

Southern Ta(M)ed says to everyone:
G'day A/all ~S~

Dair says to tyme:
is one way people who have, or believe they have, no real power can gain control over conversations, scenes, relationships, or their lives...that sums a lot of it up

~lolli~ Owned by HellBent says to tyme:
There is TONS of topping from the bottom in chat rooms.

lil' lulu {ST} says to everyone:
smiles kneeling at Master's feet, listening to the discussion..

kalen says to Jaded (M)emory:
winks and bare my teeth with a smile

Wraith's tyme says to Nathan:
do You appreciate that behavior then in those You partner up with?

~lolli~ Owned by HellBent says to kalen:
*laughs*

Southern Ta(M)ed says to lil' lulu {ST}:
Smiles and strokes ya hair Lovingly...I've missed My lil one

Nahla enters The Edge

kalen says to tyme:
ok so are we talking about the proverbial janitor that feels his life is in a swirl and cant pay the bills but really loves to dominate and the wealthy exec that has so much power but needs to surrender it from time to time because he needs to get rid of stress?

Nahla says to everyone:
hey A/all

Nathan says to tyme:
I think there is a certain degree of tolerance of such things tyme. Personally I place a great deal of import on knowing such things to a degree well ahead...that is, learning over time allows for more informed actions and informs My decisions as to actions I might ask the submissive to endeavor upon....but it is like a lead with a follow in dancing, if the follow tugs at One's hand too often, I'm liable to react more firmly in proportion.

Wraith's tyme says to kalen:
well i think those two would certainly be one example of 2 people reversing their rt roles for playtime.... *s*

oncebitten2xshi<< oncebitten2xshi says to tyme:
just to add to that post ....i think sometimes those who witness topping from the bottom feel the Dominant lost control or is weak for letting the submissive take control....i personally don’t feel they lost the control.....with your example ....said Dominant still chooses to respond to their submissives actions but again They are still very much in control.....personally i've been in situations where i'm controlling that whole particular scene ....it didn’t make me a Dominant .....or change my role ....i didn’t feel any differently .....what i was doing was different that’s all

Wraith's tyme says to Nathan:
well said Sir *smiles* a good point

lil' lulu {ST} says to Southern Ta(M)ed:
whispers listening " i've missed You too, Master " sultry lil' smile plays upon full plump lips

oncebitten2xshi<< oncebitten2xshi says to tyme:
*whispers* see that’s why i don’t offer opinions ....they are never brief *chuckles*

Southern Ta(M)ed says to Wraith:
G'day Mate

Southern Ta(M)ed says to tyme:
Nice to see you again sweetie

Nahla says to everyone:
tries to catch up with the topic

‡ dark muse ‡ says to Southern Ta(M)ed:
welcome to the discussion Sir ..*s*

‡ dark muse ‡ says to lil' lulu {ST}:
welcome beauty *s*

Wraith{tyme} says to Welcome to The Edge and Discussion Night, tonight’s topic is:
tops, bottoms, submissive and dominant roles, is there a difference?. W/we hope you will jump right into the discussion. Please confine general greeting and personal conversations NOT related to the discussion in PM.

Wraith's tyme says to oncebitten2xshi:
appreciates your opinion, on a personal note, i don't always appreciate as you don't mind it, being put in the position, but that goes back to why i feel pre communications are so important, especially in *edgier* scenes

Wraith's tyme says to everyone:
I think this is a good example of topping from the bottom....do Y/you?
It is possible to be a dominant submissive or a dominant masochist whose primary focus is, Fulfill my fantasy! “Make me get on my knees and beg,” or “Do me the way I want to be done! Clamp my nipples and spank me – no, not with your hand – okay, that’s good enough, you can hold and comfort me now.” This is not really submission; it is not giving up control:
on the contrary, it is getting what you want, having your fetish or kink taken care of.
What would you call this? Couldn't this be a scene between a Dom/me wanting to be topped?

Southern Ta(M)ed says to ‡ dark muse ‡:
Thank ya lass ~S~

lil' lulu {ST} says to Wraith:
" it is not submission, begging for certain things certain ways to be treated.. though demanding, anything, is not, shouldn't be a trait of a submissive "

kurayami ...bless the darkness... enters The Edge

oncebitten2xshi says to tyme:
i would call that bottoming from the top although i don’t think that’s a term ....agrees with the last part that its a Dom/me wanting to be topped

Jaded (M)emory says to everyone:
A dominant masochist the focus is all about him or her....what do they really care about the other

~lolli~ Owned by HellBent says to tyme:
I wouldn't classify that as any type of BDSM play.

kalen says to tyme:
hmmm thinks,. I say yes ,.kind of like the fello that wants and demands to see his wife do other guys, hides in the closet, to some he might seem submissive and in some situations he might be but could it also be that he’s a Dom just getting his rocks off and the partner is now a toy for his amusement? Thinks about this more,.a Dom demanding certain things is still a Dom.

Wraith{tyme} says to lil' lulu {ST}:
begging is acceptable if the Dom/me has a kink that begging fulfills...and the submissive doesn't push it too far...and no being demanding is not a good trait for a subbie to indulge in as it will only anger or frustrate a Dominant..as then you are usurping Their role

Wraith's tyme says to oncebitten2xshi:
i think topping and bottoming terms can make it as confusing as it can at other times help to clarify.....

Dair says to tyme:
I think that simply to be the pre-discussions...and needs,....if they need to be midstreamed then the prelims were not..correctly involved ...yes?

Dair says to tyme:
Unless they are long term familiars...with as said b4....New kinks to be satisfied

lil' lulu {ST} says to Wraith:
nods gently in agreement.. " yes Sir, "

Wraith's tyme says to ~lolli~:
so you don't think that could be a part of some bdsm couples, perhaps those where one is a S/switch perhaps?

kurayami ...bless the darkness... says to everyone:
it's not any type of BDSM play...not at all...it simply is what it implies. it's a Male or Female who pretends to be something they're not wanting to be something they can never be...and manipulating someone into giving into their own desires without giving a damn about what the other person wants.

Wraith's tyme says to kalen:
see exactly how that could indeed be a Dom orchestrating for His own pleasure

oncebitten2xshi says to tyme:
*laughs* i agree and perhaps this has already been stated by others but i don’t even think topping and bottoming is something exclusive to bdsm

Dair says to tyme:
You had to bring up Switch///*L* We will be here all night now ~lolli~ Owned by HellBent says to tyme:
Maybe, if one or both are switches, but no. As you stated it's "having your fetish or kink taken care of."

lil' lulu {ST} says to oncebitten2xshi:
" it happens in any type of power exchange, nodding

Wraith's tyme says to Dair:
well i think that is where the differences of VT and RT are obvious, so often in VT, there are no pre discussions, many just jump into scenes, which isn't the norm at all in RT situations ...usually

Nahla leaves The Edge

kurious {f} enters The Edge

lil' lulu {ST} says to Southern Ta(M)ed:
slips out with You quietly

Wraith's tyme says to oncebitten2xshi:
not at all exclusive to bdsm, topping and bottoming .....i think..... takes place in most relationships

lil' lulu {ST} leaves The Edge

kalen says to ~lolli~:
wow never considered that if they are switches and both feeling Dom its prolly a fight, but if both are feeling sub then what happens?

Wraith's tyme says to Dair:
erases the word S/switch *w*

Southern Ta(M)ed leaves The Edge

Dair says to tyme:
Not usually...but absolutely

~lolli~ Owned by HellBent says to kalen:
Someone is gonna cry *nods*

Wraith's tyme says to ~lolli~:
likely both *w*

Dair says to tyme:
TY for the eraser...*L*

kalen says to ~lolli~:
it would be like 2 geldings bumping into one another and no penetration

Dair says to tyme:
sheesh can we go on about that topic for a long time

Wraith's tyme says to Dair:
welcome Sir *w*

~lolli~ Owned by HellBent says to tyme:
True *L*

Wraith{tyme} says to kalen:
subbies play with each other all the time..and Dom/mes play as well although not as often as Equals...many times one of Them takes on a submissive role in that type of play

~lolli~ Owned by HellBent says to kalen:
And it probably won't be the first time

Dair says to tyme:
Although it does not include me and prob never will......

Wraith's tyme says to everyone:
isn't a Domme who allows a male sub to penetrate her, bottoming ?

Dair says to tyme:
unless sedated captured and brain washed...*L*

~lolli~ Owned by HellBent says to tyme:
*blinks* huh?

Dair says to tyme:
cant answer that one accept in theory ...sorry

Wraith{tyme} says to tyme:
only if he's poking Her in the ass..*G*

Wraith's tyme says to ~lolli~:
is a Domme who demands penetration by her male sub, bottoming?

kurayami ...bless the darkness... says to tyme:
bottoming out against her cervix maybe. lol

Wraith's tyme says to ~lolli~:
i think She is taking the role of bottom *s*

Dair says to tyme:
better turn light on so i can see my keyboard....

Jaded (M)emory says to kurayami:
laughs

Dair says to kurayami:
shame...LOL

Wraith's tyme says to ~lolli~:
more to the point, maybe She is in both roles of Domme and bottom *s*

kalen says to tyme:
thinks I’m stumped on that one, i have some thoughts but its not going to come out right.

kurayami ...bless the darkness... says to Jaded (M)emory:
well think about it, seriously. sex is often a dominating factor in some D/s relationships...be they Male or Female as the Top. if a Domme demands and accepts penetration from her male sub, that doesn't mean she's suddenly decided to Bottom...that simply means she needs to get reamed.

~lolli~ Owned by HellBent says to tyme:
you do?

Wraith's tyme says to kalen:
if i am not mistaken, it is semi similar to your earlier question, regarding your own different roles *s*

Wraith{tyme} says to kurayami:
Makes sense or else all subbies would always be wearing snowmobile suits since sex is not an issue..right ?

Nathan says to tyme:
that sounds like a question of tone vs. top. I'm inclined to say tone, though the question of penetration is a certain fulcrum, interpretations on both sides as to both perspectives - so, agree to disagree and you'd be safe in all cases *L*

kalen says to tyme:
Not totally and here comes the classic Chauvinistic response. I think there is a natural order that exists that men are in some form the dominant of the species. so that’s why i’m having a hard time with that.

Wraith's tyme says to ~lolli~:
i do, if you see penetration as the act, then the sub, his cock, is dominating Her when he enters her, much like a sword, entering the body *s*

Jaded (M)emory says to kurayami:
That’s a quick flip of the coin how you could view that.......total control on her part cause she allowed a reward or her gain and pleasure........or does she lose all control ..........

kurayami ...bless the darkness... says to Wraith:
precisely my point. i mean, we can't all be walking giant condoms every time we're around the Dom/me we happen to belong to.

Dair says to tyme:
ummmm...i don’t know..i might not agree with that

Wraith{tyme} says to kalen:
Hmmm..I dunno about that kalen..I have met many Dominant women over the years that would take your club away and smack ya with it...O/our roles have changed over the eons and now W/we have evolved the power exchange..*S*

Dair says to tyme:
OOPS i mean have a diff opinion

Dair says to tyme:
that better?

Jaded (M)emory says to kurayami:
That why I would suck cock before taking it up the ass......no control in the ass fuck......sucking cock I lose no control *G*.adds a laugh here to

Wraith's tyme says to Dair:
grins....yes Sir *w* thank You.... what is Your opinion?

Wraith{tyme} says to kurayami:
agrees..around Me for instance..you would be a walking small nekkid girl...*S*

Dair says to Jaded (M)emory:
LMAO

kalen says to tyme:
The Ancient Greeks believed that the mutual or singular penetration between men was not necessarily a Dom vs. sub thing but definitely saw it as domination when the penetrated a woman, especially amongst the Spartans.

Dair says to Jaded (M)emory:
Well put

~lolli~ Owned by HellBent says to tyme:
I'm not so sure I would assume a Domme thinks of a submissive's cock as anything other then a toy or play enhancer. However, I think it's a question that would best be answered by a Domme. I can only assume.

kalen says to Jaded (M)emory:
laughs no biting

Wraith's tyme says to Jaded (M)emory:
*fans myself*

Wraith{tyme} says to Jaded (M)emory:
Jots all that down for the next pizza night...*G*

Jaded (M)emory says to Dair:
laughs thanks for not reading to much into that *G*

kurayami ...bless the darkness... says to Jaded (M)emory:
suddenly LURVES You

Dair says to tyme:
and any Dom that tells u diff.....most of the time.....is not truthful

Wraith's tyme says to kalen:
exactly ... and i agree with the Spartans i suppose

oncebitten2xshi<< oncebitten2xshi says to everyone:
*makes note to ask for an invite to pizza night*

Dair says to WTiger:
Exactly

Dair says to ~lolli~:
Exactly

Wraith's tyme says to ~lolli~:
i wish we had one in here, it would be interesting to hear Her opinion on it

Wraith{tyme} says to tyme:
W/we did but She got lost and left

Jaded (M)emory says to oncebitten2xshi:
laughs you and tyme worry Me

kurayami ...bless the darkness... says to everyone:
my sister says...and i quote..."to all the Men in the room...I'M GONNA FUCKIN RAPE YOU...and i don't care if You want it or not, orientation does not make a difference where sexual desires is concerned. it's sex...You take what You want, when You want. when it comes to penetration, if You're a Top then You're still a Top regardless of whether or not You're being fucked by a submissive."

WTiger says to everyone:
To rephrase tyme's Domme question for Dom's...Does a Dom not feel like a Dom until he has penetrated his sub?

~lolli~ Owned by HellBent says to tyme:
Agreed

oncebitten2xshi<< oncebitten2xshi says to Jaded (M)emory:
at least i’m in good company *glances to tyme with a grin*

kalen says to tyme:
the Romans on the other hand believed that the one being penetrated was always submissive man or women and had a particular dislike for men that took it from another facing one another,.Caesar was said to be "Every woman’s man and every man's woman."

Wraith{tyme} says to kurayami:
Chuckles..your sister would so get chained up and used in here

Brutal Black Dom enters The Edge

Wraith's tyme says to everyone:
okay, the last stimulating conversation starter *w*"
Top's disease" as it is referred to starts with a belief that one is better than everyone else, or at least better than all bottoms. It is non-consensual domineering or bullying. Bullying in general comes from insecurity, uncertainty about their identity, and a damaged self-esteem. These types people are difficult or simply unpleasant to try to get close to.

and then there is "bottom's disease." Bottom's disease begins with the belief that you are inferior to everyone else, especially to all Tops, simply because you are a bottom. They may think all bottoms are inferior to all Tops. In an extreme form bottom's disease can lead to acting as if one has no responsibility for themselves or their own well-being, or even for their own life, simply because they are a bottom. It is believed that bottom's disease is a way to cope with insecurity, uncertainty, and a wounded sense of self. Have Y/you seen people with these diseases in BDSM chat rooms?

Jaded (M)emory says to kurayami:
To bad she can rape the willing *G*

~lolli~ Owned by HellBent says to WTiger:
Very good

Jaded (M)emory says to kurayami:
can't even

kurayami ...bless the darkness... says to Wraith:
yep, and she'd probably fight every inch of it and love it in the process. lol

kurayami ...bless the darkness... says to kalen:
ahh, but if a Dom or Dom/me was facing away from the sub, would that still make them the Top?

Wraith{tyme} says to kurayami:
Excellent..no fun chaining up and using a doormat..*W*

Wraith's tyme says to WTiger:
very good point, question .....thank You *s*

~lolli~ Owned by HellBent says to Jaded (M)emory:
*laughs*

kurayami ...bless the darkness... says to tyme:
FREQUENTLY!

Wraith's tyme says to kurayami:
me too *w*

Wraith{tyme} says to kurayami:
It's a v/t pandemic Methinks

Wraith's tyme says to WTiger:
WTiger says to everyone:
To rephrase tyme's Domme question for Dom's...Does a Dom not feel like a Dom until he has penetrated his sub? .... what is Your take on that ?

oncebitten2xshi<< oncebitten2xshi says to tyme:
i think i would have to see a Dom penetrating His sub to form an opinion on this *waits attentively*

kalen says to tyme:
Don’t think I can answer that one haven’t been here long enough to be for sure

kurayami ...bless the darkness... says to Wraith:
in truth...if You really think about it...it's an RT pandemic as well. there are Men and Women in RT who believe themselves not responsible for anything where their lives or well-being are concerned unless they have someone to take care of them or keep them safe. i call these people...and unfortunately, my grandmother happens to be kinda this way as well...milquetoast fuckwads. by the same token...there are Men and Women out there in the world that think they are superior to everybody else, nobody's as good as they are, especially the peons that work beneath them in the business world and if someone dares talk to them...heaven forbid!

Wraith's tyme says to oncebitten2xshi:
laughs....

Wraith{tyme} says to WTiger:
I always feel like a Dom no matter if I'm in sexual mode or not...when tyme first slipped to her knees in front of Me and offered to gift Me her submission..then I felt like a Master

Dair says to tyme:
I believe in one form or another once the Dom has their submissive secured or restrained the feeling applies

Wraith{tyme} says to kurayami:
Makes sense as most bring their real thoughts and attitudes with them to online

oncebitten2xshi<< oncebitten2xshi says to tyme:
just trying to further my education *sigh*

kurayami ...bless the darkness... says to everyone:
is it wrong for a Domme to go after a Dom to see who winds up on their knees in submission and what's the general take on when a Dom feels He's strong enough to take on both roles?

Wraith's tyme says to Dair:
thank You for that Sir

Unforgiven enters The Edge

Wraith{tyme} says to kurayami:
Unless One is a Self assured Dom..then it's great fun seeing what They do to break Us...*G*

Dair says to tyme:
But..as time goes on.....i do believe that the restraint area is just one of practice

kurayami ...bless the darkness... says to Wraith:
now the question becomes...for You...could You take on an Alpha Female?

Dair says to Wraith:
Isn’t that the truth LOL

Wraith's tyme says to kurayami:
as in a S/switch position? i think those that are S/switches are either fully enjoying every aspect of life they can get their hands on...... or maybe some are just trying out both sides, again, i don't think i would dare generalize on that

Dair says to kurayami:
I could never take on an alpha female

Wraith{tyme} says to kurayami:
Oh I have..I find much pleasure in being an Equal to an Alpha Female..but I have also been told by Dommes over the years that They were going to make Me kneel before them...never happens..usually they end up kneeling before Me...and then I tell them to go away

kurayami ...bless the darkness... says to tyme:
i don't think i could either, to be honest.

kalen says to tyme:
can only speak for myself its a mood thing

kurayami ...bless the darkness... says to Wraith:
see, i knew i lurved Ya! lol

Dair says to kurayami:
Let me change that...i would not want to even try...the outcome i feel would be traumatic.....unfortunately I am closed minded in that area of reversal

Wraith{tyme} says to kurayami:
Smiles..I Know My Role..

Dair says to kurayami:
So my opinion would be "Void"

Wraith's tyme says to Dair:
don't You find that a closed mind in BDSM is a contradiction? *s*

Dair says to tyme:
No...and my explanation could have been explained wrong....i consider myself in theory and mind a lot like Wraith

Dair says to tyme:
Would be a better way to answer you

kurayami ...bless the darkness... says to Wraith:
now here's yet another oddball question...if an Alpha Female suddenly realized that She, as a Domme, didn't belong in that position of power and dominance and fell to Her knees at the feet of a Dom that had previously seen Her as an equal, would it be wrong of the Dom to send the woman away simply because He didn't feel like She was strong enough to stay where She was?

Wraith{tyme} says to Dair:
Oh You poor poor Man..*G*

Dair says to tyme:
I know I am Dom

Wraith's tyme says to Dair:
okay now that makes sense *w*

Dair says to tyme:
Strictly and absolute

Jaded (M)emory says to kurayami:
In short Wraith don't give a fuck but he's very caring......not easy to achieve that *G*........he will correct My spelling latter

Unforgiven says to kurayami:
it wouldn't be wrong of a Dom to send Her away for whatever reason He choose, in My opinion...

kurayami ...bless the darkness... says to Jaded (M)emory:
gets out my trusty red pen and starts correcting for Wraith instead

Dair says to tyme:
Not without explanation

Wraith{tyme} says to kurayami:
Hmmmm...no...if she is drawn to submit to a Dom..then they should discuss that. I personally would accept the submission...we all change all the time....I would only NOT accept her..if She came along and told Me I would submit to Her..and then was on her knees...different situations

Dair says to tyme:
so to further reasoning and help along someone who might be lost and in need of direction

kurayami ...bless the darkness... says to Unforgiven:
yes, but...and i quote from my sister again..."yes, but this is BDSM, this is life...not Gor...the Man isn't always right and isn't always the be-all-end-all in whatever"

Jaded (M)emory says to kurayami:
thanks see Me for another red pen if needed *G*

Unforgiven says to kurayami:
no, of course not, I'm just stating, if One has a reason to send another away, well, that's His choice, but back to your point, I Myself wouldn't see that as cause to send a former Domme away...

kurayami ...bless the darkness... says to Wraith:
now that, as a situation itself, bears some wondering about as well. why would a Domme do such a thing other than to manipulate?

kurayami ...bless the darkness... says to Jaded (M)emory:
i may just make You my permanent red pen supplier then. lol

Wraith{tyme} says to kurayami:
of course the Dom should be wary of that..but yet..she IS the one doing the submitting..I would only be Domming her..if she wants to run off and tell her friends that she got Me to Dom her..then more power to Me

Dair says to Wraith:
Hmmmmm

kurayami ...bless the darkness... says to Wraith:
my sister said she'd brag if somebody caught her, she's hard as hell to get to her knees...and i don't mean for blow jobs either.

Wraith{tyme} says to kurayami:
I find a hand in the hair works wonders in those situations...where goes the hair...so goes the girl..*S*

Wraith{tyme} says to kurayami:
your sister ain't like..an Amazon..is she ?

oncebitten2xshi says to tyme:
*marks down buy tyme a wig next to your name on my xmas list*

kurayami ...bless the darkness... says to Wraith:
LOL more power to the Man who can hold on! LOL but that begs the question again from the previous discussion...would a Man find it more of a challenge to Dominate a submissive who was strong-willed, hard-headed, iron-fisted and fierce as all hell...a submissive who was, shall we say for lack of a better term...different? would a Dom find it intimidating or annoying?

Wraith{tyme} says to oncebitten2xshi:
I don't have to do that to tyme..she responds well to verbal Commands..*S*

Wraith{tyme} says to kurayami:
some would relish the challenge of breaking such a one...others prefer a softer form of submissive...different strokes and all

oncebitten2xshi says to Wraith:
*narrows my eyes* did You see my list?

Wraith{tyme} says to oncebitten2xshi:
Touches My temples...see's all..knows all

kurayami ...bless the darkness... says to Wraith:
now would a Man prefer a submissive woman who's naturally submissive...or would He enjoy a submissive who was only submissive to Him alone?

Wraith's tyme says to kurayami:
i was typing up a closing but had to ask, regarding your post, if one is always challenging the Dom/me.... are they a sub?

Wraith's tyme says to kurayami:
i maybe too far behind and that question didn't make sense.... but i hope it did

Jaded (M)emory says to kurayami:
leans over and reads down your list of questions *G*

oncebitten2xshi says to Wraith:
did You see what i just did ?

Wraith{tyme} says to kurayami:
it depends..I personally wouldn't want a sub that is submissive all the time..only when W/we are in role would I want that from her...if your talking a collar thing..then I think the Dom would require her to sub only to Him..unless it has been discussed that He can Order her to please others

kurayami ...bless the darkness... says to tyme:
i think they are, but yet i think they're making certain the person they're interested in is worth it. humans are not monogamous by nature, and sex is all about breeding, so they have to make sure they're good protectors, good providers...yada yada yada. it's all about breeding, who's going to prove to be the best mate, so to speak. plus...some just play with the dangly bits and challenge to see what they can get away with.

Wraith{tyme} says to oncebitten2xshi:
yes..and you'll need to wash off those two fingers after you leave

kurayami ...bless the darkness... says to tyme:
my sister included

oncebitten2xshi says to Wraith:
why? You know i have a sweet tooth

kurayami ...bless the darkness... says to Wraith:
i'm talking about knowing that no One's ever Topped her in her past before she ever met with You, otherwise she'd be a free-for-all for anybody that wanted her.

Wraith{tyme} says to oncebitten2xshi:
sure I do..but I have this kink about telling girls what I want them to do..*Shrugs*

Wraith's tyme says to kurayami:
i do disagree with that, i see them more as tops, not subs but ones that need to control by dominating conversations if nothing else by playing the brat, the challenger..... but i am not a Dom and don't know for sure how a Dm/me would bee that

Wraith{tyme} says to kurayami:
that only means she is new to the lifestyle and needs to do some reading and ask ALOT of questions...I don't think any Dom really wants to have a wrestling match with a submissive

kalen says to Wraith:
Naked game of twister would be more fun

Wraith{tyme} says to kalen:
you bring the baby oil..*W*

kurayami ...bless the darkness... says to tyme:
see...myself, i'm kinda that kind of submissive. i challenge all the time because i desire and need a Top that can control me, a Top that can mould and guide me with gentleness and strict discipline if He needs to. that's what i need. part of the fun is in the fight sometimes. i don't want a Man that simply rolls over whenever i say something that i think may make Him angry or hurt Him, that makes Him weak in my eyes. i want a Man who will bite back, twice as hard, snap and put me back in my place right at His feet where He knows i belong.

kalen says to Wraith:
LOL

Wraith's tyme says to kalen:
i wish we could work out how to do that in here one night *s* Twister i mean *w*

Dair says to kurayami:
hmmmmmmm

Dair says to kurayami:
question

Wraith{tyme} says to kurayami:
That thought has occurred to Me a few times while talking to you..*W*

kurayami ...bless the darkness... says to Dair:
hmm?

kalen says to tyme:
i actually answered the door to my former gf like that once had the spinner in hand, strange we never made it to the mat.

Dair says to kurayami:
do u enjoy fantasy rape?

kurayami ...bless the darkness... says to Wraith:
ahh yes, but see..i'm selfish. i don't share and You've already got a fantastic girl. lol

Dair says to kurayami:
commanding?

Dair says to kurayami:
rough?

Wraith{tyme} says to kalen:
well what did you have in your other hand ?

Wraith's tyme says to kalen:
laughs, well that's a shame ..... and not *l*

kurayami ...bless the darkness... says to Dair:
no, considering i had it done to me RT twice in my life, i don't particularly enjoy that kind of play.

kalen says to Wraith:
don’t want to say his name in a public room shhh

Wraith{tyme} says to kurayami:
yeah yeah..I just said the thought had occured..else you would be on your knees right now..*S*

kurayami ...bless the darkness... says to Wraith:
begging, right? lol

Wraith{tyme} says to kalen:
you gave it a name did you...how cute..*S*

Dair says to kurayami:
sorry to hear that....as far as the RT happening i mean...but i guess sometimes i read others wrong

Wraith{tyme} says to kurayami:
hardly..*L*

kurayami ...bless the darkness... says to Dair:
i know a few people that do enjoy that play, but i'm not one of them.

kurayami ...bless the darkness... says to Wraith:
or maybe chewing on Your ankle. LOL

kalen says to Wraith:
several actually thinking of getting him a registered pedigree

Wraith{tyme} says to kurayami:
more likely..thus was born the ball gag

Dair says to tyme:
Did someone mention begging

~lolli~ Owned by HellBent says to kalen:
*LOL*

Wraith's tyme says to everyone:
And so this brings to an end this Sunday Night Discussion. Thank Y/you A/all for coming and participating. If you have any ideas for coming discussion nights please post them to the message thread or just let me know. Again, Sunday Night Discussions are at 10pm ET. W/we did start late tonight but are hoping to begin on time next week and beyond and hope to see Y/you all back to make for another good discussion. Reminds Y/you all that this discussion from beginning to end can be found within a few days, with all the rest at the U of N link. Again, thank Y/you A/all *s*